00:00INVASION OF GAZA, YOU ARE HEARING PUSHBACK ON THE WAY ISRAEL HAS COMPOSED OF SELF IN THIS WAR WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING CIVILIAN LIFE. BUT WHAT IS ISRAEL SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN CIVILIANS FLEE SOUTH AND HAMAS FOLLOWS THEM? AMB. JEFFREY: IT ' S A QUANDARY WE HAVE HAD FROM THE BEGINNING, NOT ONLY READ IN THE UNITED STATES AS THE PRIMARY BACKERS OF ISRAEL MILITARILY WITH OUR FLEET, AND EQUIPMENT, BUT ALSO FOR THE ISRAELIS THEMSELVES. THEIR PROBLEM IS THEY SEE THEIR NUMBER ONE GOAL AS AN EXISTENTIAL GOAL, A RIGHT-NOW GOAL OF DESTROYING HAMAS, AS A MILITARY OFFENSIVE FORCE AND AS THE GOVERNORS OF GAZA. THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED PRETTY MUCH IN THE NORTH WHICH IS WHY THEY AREN ' T ROUNDING THAT A PERSON UP. NOW THEY ARE TRYING IN THE SOUTH . IT WILL BE TOUGHER BECAUSE THE BULK OF THE FOURTH IS THERE AND IT ' S A SMALL AREA. THEY HAVE BEGUN OPERATIONS ON THE GROUND AND PROMISED TO BE MORE CAREFUL. THEY HAVE GOTTEN A LOT OF WARNINGS AS WE JUST HEARD FROM JAKE SULLIVAN AND NOW SECRETARY AUSTIN. WE ' LL HAVE TO SEE HOW THIS GOES, BUT IS NOT EASY TO PROTECT CIVILIANS. THEY HAVE TO PAY IN TIME OR IS REALLY CASUALTIES, BOTH OF WHICH ARE PRECIOUS TO THEM. ANNMARIE: WE TALKED TO ADMIRAL KIRBY AND JOE AND I ASKED, WHERE DO YOU EXPECT THE CIVILIANS TO GO? HE SAID, THEY DO NOT SUPPORT OPERATIONS UNLESS THEY FACTOR IN CIVILIANS, AND TWO, HE URGED THEM TO KEEP CIVILIANS SAFE. THAT ' S NOT REALLY AN ANSWER. WHERE DID THEY EXPECT THESE PEOPLE TO GO? THEY TOLD THEM TO MOVE, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, MOVED FROM THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH. AMB. JEFFREY: THAT ' S TRUE. THEY WILL TRY TO, AND THEY HAVE THESE FUNNY LITTLE MAPS THAT THEY ARE DEPLOYING FROM LITTLE AREAS. I DON ' T THINK THAT WILL WORK PARTICULARLY WELL IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR ZONE. TELLING THEM TO GO FROM NORTH TO SOUTH ACTUALLY DID WORK. ANNMARIE: AND THEY SET OF CORRIDORS. AMB. JEFFREY: THEY SET UP CORRIDORS. DO HAVE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THEY WILL BE FACING A LOT OF CIVILIANS AND IT MEANS CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. WILL HAVE TO SEE HOW DEEPLY THIS. JOE: WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF THE TRUTH? WE ' LL START TO SEE IDF USING SPECIAL FORCES? AMB. JEFFREY: THAT IS POSSIBLE. THEY HAVE ELIMINATED, PARTICULARLY IN THE NORTH, THE PLACES WHERE THEY COULD BE. EVEN IN HAMAS, THERE IS ONLY SO MANY KILOMETERS OF TUNNELS YOU CAN HAVE. BUT IF HAMAS PUT A GOOD OFFER ON THE TABLE, FROM WHAT WE SEE IN THE INTERNAL POLITICS OF ISRAEL, THERE IS NO IT ISRAEL IS WOULD SAY NO. THEY WOULD PLAY IT OUT FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES. REMEMBER, EVERY EXCHANGE REDUCES THE NUMBER OF HOSTAGES THAT HAMAS HAS AND MAKES IT EASIER FOR ISRAEL TO FIND THE REMAINING ONES. ANNMARIE: THE WALL STREET JOURNAL IS OUT WITH A HEADLINE THIS AFTERNOON, " ISRAEL WAY A PLAN TO FLOOD THE TUNNELS WITH WATER. " WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE HOSTAGES? IS THERE ANY INTELLIGENCE THAT MAY BE THOSE HOSTAGES ARE IN HOMES AND NOT IN TUNNELS, THAT THEY ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE? AMB. JEFFREY: I AM NOT PRIVY TO THE INTELLIGENCE, BUT FOR EVERYTHING THOSE HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN RELEASED HAVE SAID, MANY OF THEM ARE IN TUNNELS. THE FLOODING SEAWATER IDEA IS NOT NEW THE EGYPTIANS DID IT TO SHUT DOWN 20 OR 30 TUNNELS THAT HAMAS HAD DUG FROM GAZA YEARS AGO. IT ' S NORMALLY A FEASIBLE PLAN OF ACTION. BUT YOU HAVE TO FACTOR IN THE HOSTAGES. IT ' S HARD TO IMAGINE IS WHAT WE ' LL DO THIS WITHOUT HAVING AN ANSWER TO THE HOSTAGES. JOE: YOU ARE A FORMER DIPLOMAT, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CIA DIRECTOR PLAYING SUCH A CENTRAL ROLE IN THE TRUCE IN THE HOSTAGES THAT WERE RELEASED, REALIZING THAT HE, TOO, WAS A FORMER DIPLOMAT, BUT TO HAVE SOMEBODY WITH THAT TITLE IN QATAR HELPING ORCHESTRATE THIS, WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR OUR FOREIGN POLICY? AMB. JEFFREY: IT MEANS THAT WE ARE LUCKY WE HAVE PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN WHO UNDERSTANDS HOW DIPLOMACY WORKS. YOU GO WITH THE PERSON WHO CAN GET THE JOB DONE, NOT THE PERSON WITH THE TITLE. MORE IMPORTANTLY, HIS COUNTERPART IS THE MASADA DIRECTOR, THE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE CHIEF. IT WOULD BE ODD FOR JOHN SULLIVAN TO TALK TO THAT GUY. AGAIN, DESPITE THE INTELLIGENCE CONNECTION, ON ALMOST EVERY MIDDLE EAST OR RUSSIAN ISSUE AS WE HAVE SEEN, BILL BURNS IS THE GUY TO USE. , RIGHT, HE HAS BEEN FLYING AROUND THE WORLD. WE HEARD FROM NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN TODAY ABOUT WHAT THE U.S. IS DOING IN TERMS OF DETERRENCE IN THE REGION. TAKE A LISTEN. > > WE HAVE TAKEN A NUMBER OF STEPS INCLUDING THE MOVEMENT OF CARRIERS AND OTHERS TO KEEP THIS WAR THAT IS BEING WAGED NOW BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS IN GAZA FROM SPILLING OUT INTO A BROADER CONFLICT. THAT DOESN ' T MEAN WE ARE NOT SEEING VERY ALARMING BEHAVIOR. ANNMARIE: I MEAN, THERE WAS SOME ALARMING BEHAVIOR THIS WEEKEND WITH THE U.S. AIRCRAFT CARRIER, AS WELL AS THE HOUTHI S FIRING DRONES AND MISSILES AGAINST CARGO SHIPS. DOES THAT WORRIES YOU ABOUT POTENTIALLY THIS CONFLICT SPREADING? AMB. JEFFREY: IF I WERE JAKE SULLIVAN, I WOULD CALL IT A ALARMING BEHAVIOR AS WELL. I WOULDN ' T SAY THE TRUTH IS, BOY, ARE WE HAPPY THEY ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT IS HAVING AN IMPACT ON ANYTHING. THIS IS A SO FAR, ALL FOR SHOW. EVEN THE SEEMINGLY HIGH-CASUALTY EXCHANGES BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH ON THE LEBANESE BORDER, WHICH HAVE CAUSED SOME HUNDRED PEOPLE. THE BIG-PICTURE HERE BEYOND GAZA IS, JOE BIDEN HAS MIRACULOUSLY CALLED FORTH A WHOLE PIB OT OF THE NAVY, AIR FORCE AND ARMY BACK TO THE REGION AND HE HAS CONTAINED AND DETERRED IRAN AND THEIR PALS THAT HAVE BEEN RUNNING AMOK IN THE REGION THE LAST FEW YEARS. THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW STRIKES HERE OR THERE, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN CAREFUL BECAUSE THEY KNOW WE HAVE ESCALATION DOMINANCE. JOE: WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT A SUSTAINED DRONE ATTACK FOR SIX OR SEVEN HOURS AT THE RED SEA YESTERDAY, IS THAT SOMETHING THE U.S. NAVY CAN SIMPLY SWOT AWAY? AMB. JEFFREY: I THINK IT WAS A 20 HOUTHI, HEZBOLLAH, ZERO, U.S. NAVY, 20. JOE BIDEN HAS GIVEN THOSE SHIPS THE ORDER NOT JUST TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, BUT LET ' S BE HONEST, TO DEFEND ISRAEL.